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Attempt to rebuild the Jewish Temple[edit]

Sources:

THEODORET of Cyrus: „Historia ecclesiastica“ („The Ecclesiastical History“), Book III [A.D. 361-363]: „Chapter XV. - Of the Jews; of their attempt at building, and of the heaven-sent plagues that befel them.“ → https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/203/2030098.htm „20. Die Juden und ihr Versuch des Tempelbaues und die von Gott über sie verhängten Strafen“ → https://bkv.unifr.ch/de/works/cpg-6222/versions/kirchengeschichte-bkv/divisions/91

AMMIANUS MARCELLINUS: „Res Gestae“ XXIII.1. [A.D. 390-392]: → http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ammian/23*.html → https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_AVAMAAAAYAAJ/page/488/mode/2up (Seite 490))

GREGORY NAZIANZEN (Gregor von Nazianz) (he was a fellow student of Julian the Apostate in Athens): "Julian the Emperor" (1888). Orationes XLV; Oration 5: Second Invective Against Julian, 3.+4.+7. → https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/gregory_nazianzen_3_oration5.htm 3. → https://bkv.unifr.ch/de/works/cpg-3010/versions/reden-bkv/divisions/265 4. → https://bkv.unifr.ch/de/works/cpg-3010/versions/reden-bkv/divisions/266 [s. footnotes! / Fußnoten!: Chrysostomus + Ambrosius + Sokrates + Sozomenus + Theodoret + Rufinus + Philostorgius + Rabbi Gedalja + Ammianus Marcell. + Cyrillus + Julian (!) ] 7. → https://bkv.unifr.ch/de/works/cpg-3010/versions/reden-bkv/divisions/269

--91.89.11.105 (talk) 00:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

JULIAN THE PHILOSOPHER[edit]

I know that this nickname is very widespread in many languages, including English. I tried changing this on another account a year ago but it got immediately reverted. I’m going to try it again now. If anyone thinks it is not widespread enough or has any other counter arguments I’m open to learn. Populares rome (talk) 17:38, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I dont really have anything against the edition, but if anyone has sources to suport this claim it would very helpful Optimates greece (talk) 15:29, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I saw some on Google Books—some aren't any good as sources, but a few look valid. An ngram suggested that the title is pretty rare, but not a new coinage. I just couldn't decide what to do with it, so I decided to defer and let other editors decide. P Aculeius (talk) 16:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the claim because of a lack of sources to support it. If anyone has the sources needed feel free to add it again. Reman Empire (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly doesn't belong in the first sentence, before "the Apostate" has been mentioned, which is by far his most common nickname. If it really is used in reliable sources (none have so far been cited), it probably belongs down in the section on "Religious issues" Furius (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From what I could gather it’s mainly used by modern pagans, but also several historians and philosophers trying to reevaluate Julian as a good ruler, mainly in french, so the term has probably got some neutrality issues in general and not just religious. Reman Empire (talk) 01:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which would make it unfit for the article Reman Empire (talk) 01:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with me, I just didn't want to make the call based on what I found. I didn't really dig into the sources that weren't obviously no good (the first result was based on an earlier version of this article, for example). P Aculeius (talk) 01:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still, a lot of other Wikis, notably the simple English and French ones, have Julian the Philosopher cited at the top as one of the principal nicknames Julian had and has. Now those articles aren’t necessarily the best, neither are they necessarily better than the English one, in fact they are often inferior in quality to the English Wiki, but still like it’s been back there a long time from what I can understand, so wouldn’t it be better to look at the situation a little closer than saying
"it’s mainly used by modern pagans but also several historians and philosophers trying to reevaluate Julian as a good ruler, mainly in French"
because if it were really only used by super bias Historians and Philosophers, which are according to this guy "mainly French", then why would specifically the French article have this nickname cited alongside Julian II and Julian the apostate. Now the thing is I have some hard time believing that all those editors on the French Wikipedia page are all "modern pagans" and "historians and philosophers trying to reevaluate Julian as a good ruler". And those editors, considering the fact they’re all (or almost) speaking French, would most likely be aware of such shananigans. Plus if any of those "historians and philosophers" are modern, then that would definitely count as a (most likely) pretty valid source. On the other hand while I don’t think there’s any issues with neutrality here we are on the English Wikipedia and the thing seems to be not very known back here. Yet again it’s on the Simple English article. But then again it’s the Simple English article. Anyway I just don’t think it’s good to stop this discussion know because if there are truly "several historians and philosophers" claiming this it would be nice to know which ones and maybe give the thing a second look. I’m the Editor who wrought the message I just finished criticizing, and I don’t remember much , but while I did do research, It was quick and honestly bad research. Most of the research here was done by simply scrolling down the discussion page on the French Wikipedia. The editors there had some good arguments. Reman Empire (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In all probability, the language in those Wikis originated here. Including it based on those would be circular (see WP:CIRCULAR). P Aculeius (talk) 19:49, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After further research the French article seems to have originally been titled "Julian the Apostate", which is why there was a lot of discussion about the nicknames of Julian. One editor said that, out of all books (admittedly French) on him written after 1960 (that was in 2004) , there are 27 books simply referring to him as Emperor Julian, and only 8 referring to him as "Julian the apostate" and 6 out of those eight are newer editions of works from the early 20th century. Moreover out of the two remaining works, one adresses the nickname in irony. There is one book calling him "Julian the Philosopher". I’m not saying it should be here because it’s in the French article, I’m just saying that if there are somewhat reliable sources stating other nicknames in other languages then why not in English. In general I think it would be good to give other surnames a chance on the article in order for it to not just be featuring the Christian Name. Reman Empire (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I found a source. The name is also mentioned on a fairly reliable YouTube channel (Kings and Generals, I think. That’s obviously not a reliable source, but it’s worth mentioning), and the sources for that Neo-Hellenic religion site may also be worth looking into. As a result I’ve added the name again; this time after the apostat was mentioned. Il do some searching and add a few more soon. Have great day ! Reman Empire (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a source: it's the title of a book, which makes it what the author of that book decided would make a good title. What does she say about him in that book? Does that or any scholarly source actually claim that he was called "Julian the Philosopher" by his contemporaries, or by historical sources before people started trying to publicize this name on the internet? If not, then it doesn't belong in the lead, if at all—that gives undue weight to what is basically historical revisionism. P Aculeius (talk) 14:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@P Aculeius: There are. As I’ve said at least in French, as you can see from the above list. The name probably isn’t contemporary of Julian, but it’s most likely a courant of revisionism important enough (in this case trying to rehabilitate Julian’s reputation) to be mentioned in the lead. The rest obviously belongs to religious issues. But academic sources do mention the name. I usually edit on the Inca, so I’m not to engaged here. But revisionism or not, it is mentioned by academic sources. I do not have the work at hand. *The author is a historian*, just so you know when I’m telling you the following: It’s most likely a nickname used in the book, because from what I’ve read the nickname is sometimes used in France to replace the old Apostat with a more "laïc" name. In the description available on Amazon the author made Julian the inventor of a (primitive) "laïcité". That’s obviously anachronistic , and that’s also the words used. This historian is not a outlier, and is fairly mainstream as well from what I’ve seen. The name needs to be mentioned somewhere behind The Apostat. If mentionning in the lead is really that bad, maybe we could put it to religious issues, but it’s important enough to be mentioned.
It also isn’t just present in French historiography, as that YouTube video (which I do obviously not claim is a good source, but it shows the name is present) and the Hellenic site prove. All in all it’s old and known enough to get the mention. Il try to procure myself the book to see further. Maybe for now it should be removed. Il inform you if the name is used. Have a great day !

Note: I am not using the term Revisionism in its negative meaning here.

Reman Empire (talk) 14:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 December 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 00:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Julian (emperor) → Julian the Apostate – WP:COMMONNAME, this is how he is usually known. I realise that some might consider that this reflects Christian bias. However since nearly everything we know about him has been filtered through Christian sources, even non-Christians usually refer to him by this name e.g. even the Turkish Wikipedia uses a version of this name in its opening line. PatGallacher (talk) 22:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per the arguments at Talk:Julian_(emperor)/Archive_5#Consensus_name_change_sought and Talk:Julian_(emperor)/Archive_5#Straw_Poll:_Proposed_Move_to_Julian_(emperor), which resulted in the page being moved here. "The Apostate" is POV and increasingly less common in scholarship. Furius (talk) 23:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We've had this argument at length repeatedly, and achieved consensus on a name that's neutral and uncontroversial. I understand the argument for the old name, and I agree that it's got a lot of history behind it and that it's not out of the question to use a title that reflects the hostility of a particular group, when it's commonly used with little of its original intent. But I still like the present name better, and it doesn't cause any confusion. I see no advantage to re-opening this debate, which certainly brings out strong feelings on both sides. P Aculeius (talk) 00:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"What about..." some other article isn't really a persuasive argument, particularly in the case of Ivan the Terrible (I note that that article was moved from the comparatively unrecognizable "Ivan IV of Russia" following consensus in 2011). There's still a scholarly consensus about that name, which wasn't bestowed as a form of religious condemnation, and for which there is plenty of historical as well as etymological justification: he wasn't called "the Terrible" because he was very bad, but because he was terrifying; it's an older use of the word, although many of the things he did, and the consequences of his actions, still make sense if we understand "terrible" to mean "very bad". Only a fringe minority seems to argue that the epithet doesn't fit in either sense. Meanwhile, apostasy is a concept that modern readers generally have to look up in order to understand, as it's no longer hurled around in everyday life, and isn't considered particularly relevant; as Furius points out, scholarly sources have increasingly moved away from it, while appraisals of Julian as emperor, from anything other than an extreme religious perspective, are generally positive to neutral.
But besides these distinctions, the title of this article was argued at length in 2006 (two discussions, including one formal page move discussion), 2007–2008 (seven discussions, including three formal page moves), 2009 (one page move with extended arguments with multiple sections, subsections, collapsed boxes, etc. that continued from March to June), 2010–2011 (two extended discussions), then finally in 2013 a proposal for the current title received strong consensus. And since that time most of the discussion—apart from a move request for an undisambiguated name last year—has been about the highly dubious claim that Julian was widely known as "Julian the Philosopher". The current title is stable, unambiguous, and consistent with both modern scholarship and the way other articles about Roman emperors are treated. Having finally achieved consensus after years of argument, I see no persuasive reason to plunge back into the same argument again. P Aculeius (talk) 14:26, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Meanwhile, apostasy is a concept that modern readers generally have to look up in order to understand" Not in Greece, where I live. The term has no religious meaning, but it is used for political defectors. It is commonly used for the Apostasia of 1965, one of the events which led to the formation of the Greek junta (1967-1974). Dimadick (talk) 07:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support By far his most common name.★Trekker (talk) 13:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inclined to support, mainly on the grounds that the arguments for the current title are weak and natural disambiguation is preferred.
    • Works using 'Apostate' in the title:
      • Julian the Apostate (1978)
      • Julian the Apostate (2007)
      • The Last Pagan: Julian the Apostate and the Death of the Ancient World (2008)
      • Emperor and Author: The Writings of Julian the Apostate (2012)
      • Julian's Gods: Religion and Philosophy in the Thought and Action of Julian the Apostate (2013)
      • The Last Pagan Emperor: Julian the Apostate and the War Against Christianity (2017)
      • Beyond Intolerance: The Meeting of Milan of 313 AD and the Evolution of Imperial Religious Policy from the Age of the Tetrarchs to Julian the Apostate (2018)
      • A Companion to Julian the Apostate (2020)
      • Julian the Apostate in Byzantine Culture (2022)
    • Works using only 'Julian' in the title:
      • The Emperor Julian (1978)
      • Emperor Julian: Panegyric and Polemic (1989)
      • Sons of Hellenism, Fathers of the Church: Emperor Julian, Gregory of Nazianzus, and the Vision of Rome (2012)
      • The Specter of the Jews: Emperor Julian and the Rhetoric of Ethnicity in Syrian Antioch (2019)
      • The Emperor Julian and the Jews (2019)
      • Julian: Rome's Last Pagan Emperor (2023)
As can be seen, reliable scholarly sources don't seem to have a problem with the nickname. And why would they? Srnec (talk) 21:01, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It has been said in the past to be POV, implying a Christian outlook, which of course it does. Try this vintage discussion from the archives, one of many such that should have been linked by the nominator. Johnbod (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do any scholars explicitly reject the name "Julian the Apostate" for that (or any other) reason? Surtsicna (talk) 21:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In The Emperor Julian and the Jews, Adler refers to the epithet as "opprobrious" and having "been added to his name by his opponents": In spite, however, of the opprobrious epithet of 'Apostate' having been added to his name by his opponents, and of the fact that he has been accused of being one of the bitterest persecutors of Christianity, more sober critics have arrived at the conclusion that ... Jhvx (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I see no reason to reflect Christian hostility in an article name, and Julian's status as a Christian was at best nominal. Dimadick (talk) 08:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per oppose arguments above. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@P Aculeius:

appraisals of Julian as emperor, from anything other than an extreme religious perspective, are generally positive to neutral

Source for that claim?

And what do you consider "an extreme religious perspective"?

What are your views on Christianity, by the way?

Capitalization of "emperor"[edit]

From the MOS "When a title is used to refer to a specific person as a substitute for their name during their time in office, e.g., the King, not the king (referring to Charles III); the Pope, not the pope (referring to Francis)." Primergrey (talk) 23:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here the title is a common noun, used to describe the person, not a substitute for a name. If you look at the table below the section you're quoting, you'll see that this situation ("the emperor died") is most closely analogous to examples such as: "Nixon was the president" or "The French king Louis XVI was later beheaded". Wikipedia also tends to follow typical practice, and avoid capitalization unless it is overwhelmingly done in given cases.
Here, from Michael Grant, The Roman Emperors, p. 251 (the chapter on Julian): "In about 342 the emperor transferred him to Nicomedia" (referring to Constantius II transferring Julian); subsequently: "through the influence of the emperor's first wife Eusebia"; "he learnt that the emperor was dead". Browning, The Emperor Julian, pp. 34, 35: "The old emperor, who did not really want a successor", "the bejewelled catafalque on which the embalmed body of the emperor lay", "a will had been found in the hand of the deceased emperor". Bowersock, Julian the Apostate, p. 12: "The emperor's strong neck often ran with sweat under the strain of ceaseless toil"; p. 18: "The emperor's spiritual life equipped him to dissemble with confidence"; p. 23: "In the Misopogon the emperor paid a luminous tribute to Mardonius".
In each of these instances, "emperor" is used in the same way as in "the emperor died", and it is not capitalized, because it is not being used as part of his name or official title, but in the generic sense, even though it refers to a specific emperor (Constantine, Constantius II, Julian). I don't deny that some writers might choose to capitalize "emperor" in similar circumstances, but it doesn't seem to be the usual practice in modern English. P Aculeius (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But that is specifically the guidance our MOS provides. Primergrey (talk) 04:00, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not—the examples provided make that pretty clear. Just because the word "emperor" refers to somebody in particular doesn't make it a proper noun. In fact, words like this nearly always refer to specific people, without becoming proper nouns. There's a difference between "Mayor McCheese opened the new playground" and "the mayor opened the new playground". "Mayor" may be his title, but it's not a proper noun whenever it happens to refer to a particular person, irrespective of whether he's in office at the time referred to. In "the emperor died", "emperor" is a common noun. P Aculeius (talk) 04:42, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your examples are contrary to the examples in the MOS. e.g., the King, not the king (referring to Charles III); the Pope, not the pope (referring to Francis). Primergrey (talk) 06:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're misinterpreting "during their time in office". Charles is the UK king right now, and Francis is the pope right now. Julian is not currently the Roman emperor; no one is. In my opinion, that MOS "rule" (which was doubtless lifted from any one of several possible style guides with similar statements) may be useful for journalism, but is rarely applicable in an encyclopedia. Deor (talk) 12:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then get the guidance in the MOS changed. Primergrey (talk) 12:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the other examples? It's not the word "the" you should be focusing on. Your reading also conflicts with the guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Titles of people: "In generic use, apply lower case to words such as president, king, and emperor (De Gaulle was a French president; Louis XVI was a French king; Three prime ministers attended the conference)." The line you're relying on is meant to be part of the explanation of this statement; it doesn't make sense to read it as contradicting it.
The more general explanation at top also says, "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia" (emphasis in original). And here multiple scholarly sources dealing with Roman emperors (and Julian and his family specifically) consistently do not capitalize "emperor" in like circumstances. There are certainly counter-examples, but that does not indicate consistent capitalization in English.
The article as it currently stands has inconsistent usage, with nine instances where "emperor" is capitalized without being directly juxtaposed with an emperor's name—but almost three times as many where it is not, even though in most of those instances it refers to a specific emperor, and in some cases is followed by the name of the emperor mentioned. My understanding of Wikipedia policy is that we don't go out of our way to capitalize titles when they occur in like circumstances, but another reasonable interpretation would be to treat it as an area of disagreement that cannot easily be resolved by project-wide consensus, and therefore should simply be consistent throughout individual articles. In this article most instances are not capitalized, and that also weighs against doing it here. P Aculeius (talk) 12:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that the statement "the e(E)mperor died" is generic when it has been established who the emperor is. "...when an emperor dies..." is generic. Primergrey (talk) 12:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You stated above that, " Just because the word "emperor" refers to somebody in particular doesn't make it a proper noun." Our MOS disagrees. Primergrey (talk) 13:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's your interpretation of it—and it's contradicted by the other statements and examples given in the manual of style, quoted above. It's also inconsistent with Wikipedia's general guidance on capitalization of titles, since "emperor" is not consistently capitalized in general usage. The fact that it refers to a particular emperor is of no importance—the examples above make that clear, since they also refer to specific persons, and yet are treated as common nouns. P Aculeius (talk) 14:18, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although I believe that P Aculeius and Deor are correct that "emperor" is not capitalized when it isn't used as a title followed by a name, I might note that British English has a greater tendency to capitalize stand-alone titles especially, as pointed out above, in referring to the reigning monarch. So could this debate be partially driven by differences in British and American style preferences? Which is the article written in? Reasoning on the basis of the definite or indefinite article (the versus a/an) won't hold water. We don't write "the oldest Man in the world died" or "the Oldest Man in the World died" even though only one person can be the single oldest man in the world and so that phrase refers to "somebody in particular". Unique applicability is not what transforms a common noun into a name. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going by the MOS. Nothing else. I've never been on the pro-capping side of a dispute here before. I don't give a shit about the philosophical nuances of this debate. I will go try to get the MOS changed to reflect this apparent consensus. Primergrey (talk) 15:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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