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New World Map Image, New Zealand[edit]

Hi, i think we need a new world map image since there are actually more than 10,000 people of German descent in New Zealand- the real figure according to the New Zealand government is some 200,000.

Culture - Carnival[edit]

I think it is misleading to suggest that carnival is particularly important in Southern Germany, as one branch of the tradition is located in the Rhineland. Carnival in the Rhineland is distinct from the traditions in Southern Germany, and most people would propably agree, that the biggest carnival cities Cologne, Düsseldorf, and Bonn are in Middle/Central Germany rather than Southern Germany. Those cities also aren't even listed on the Southern Germany page. I would suggest either not singeling out a region in particular, stating it's insignificance in Nothern Germany or adding the Rhineland as a region, where carnival is a particularly important tradition as well. 134.100.137.10 (talk) 16:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I didn't search for sources, because I think this is not likely to be challenged. Every German knows that. Only: The third centre of German Karneval is Mainz, not Bonn. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this article so poorly made?[edit]

Comparing to other ethnicity pages, there is too little infographics in the leading section, too much emphasis on the holocaust, not talking about the communities around the world and no significant personalities.-Alexceltare2 (talk) 10:18, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Alexceltare2, I agree with you. Additionally, unlike other similar articles like Russians, Ukrainians, English people, French people, Finnish people, Greeks, Polish people, etc., this article defines Germans as people living in Germany instead of the more common definition of the ethnic group comprising descendents of people who spoke German. This lead of this article, similar to other articles, should be rewritten as such, or in an even better way:

The Germans are an ethnic group and a nation native to Germany, Austria, Alsace and parts of Switzerland, Belgium...

or maybe something like this:

The Germans are a West Germanic ethnic group native to Germany, Austria, Alsace and parts of Switzerland, Belgium, and comprise a large portion of the population of United States, Brazil and Canada...

PadFoot2008 07:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the real world German speakers in Austria, and so on simply don't call themselves Germans, and to call them German can be offensive. Who are we on WP to decide that they "should" be called Germans? As usual on WP if you can find good sources which say otherwise then that can be discussed. IMHO though, there is an ongoing problem on Wikipedia, and on the internet generally, of dreamers making up imaginary worlds where languages, nationalities and so on are all lined-up, and people are fitted into neat boxes. The real world is complicated, and there is no reason to make all articles about these topics fit the same patterns. A lot of WP articles about ethnicity are problematic in various ways.

Coming back to this specific article, there is a separate article about the "German diaspora" for discussions about people who might be considered German in a sense but are not German citizens. In the case of the term "Germans", it's modern usage is clearly centred now around citizenship and this article should be allowed to focus on that. On that basis I believe the first infobox should be removed. I don't think the discussion of the Holocaust is very big. I don't personally see a big problem with adding material about notable Germans although we should avoid too much trivia.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PadFoot2008: Do you have any sources supporting your suggestion ? Rsk6400 (talk) 10:06, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should simply restore the version from a decade ago that actually comes with a source and is inclusive of all the world wide view. Germans (German: Deutsche) are the people who are identified with the modern country of Germany and historically Germanic Central Europe. This connection may be ethnic, residential, legal, historical or cultural.^[1] Moxy🍁 21:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Lowell Barrington (6 January 2012). Comparative Politics: Structures and Choices. Cengage Learning. p. 112. ISBN 978-1-111-34193-0.

Thanks Moxy. My two cents. The first part seems similar to what we have now but the second part is a can of worms? Germanic central Europe could include Attila and his allies. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:02, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The link that is not seen here in the lead explains much more about the concept and actually links scholarly publications over grade school dictionary terms.... Germanic peoples. Moxy🍁 22:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with the first part, but "historically" would include all the time from the Gothic cathedrals to the French Revolution (or even WWII), and the term "Germanic peoples" makes no sense in those times. BTW: "people who are identified with ... Germany" raises the question whether we need this article or should merge with Germany - but I don't want to open another "can of worms". Rsk6400 (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well in a sense the modern type of link between citizenship and nation state means this article is already closely bound to the topic of the Germany article. I see no problem with that. It seems a group of challenges arise from the fact that we don't normally insist that there were no Germans before modern Germany, and so we've been trying to leave some space for that. The history of every modern people presents different challenges in this respect. It seems the old version Moxy mentions had a similar approach but the solution for the historical aspect of equating Germanic and German (even limited to history) goes much further than I think most scholars or normal dictionaries would, although such expansive use of the term German was once popular. Don't mention the war, as Basil Fawlty says, but stretching these supposed Germans all over central Europe also seems to go very far from normal usage. Unless we pretend language was what defined everything, which it doesn't, then this could include the predecessors of Czechs, Poles, Hungarians etc. In previous discussion we found good justifications and sourcing for saying that "Germans" begin with the Ottonian kingdom. In a rough way the concept of a German has always been connected to particular states although obviously this was far less neat in the past. The Austrians are a good test case. Any definition we use should handle them. I think calling them Germans becomes increasingly awkward and infrequent in normal usage after the Middle Ages. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not after the Middle Ages, but after 1866 (Dissolution of the German Confederation), especially after 1945 (Austrians wanting to and having to distance themselves from Nazi Germany). Rsk6400 (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics section[edit]

AngelusVastator3456 in general there is a fair bit of caution about the tendency to add genetics sections. Probably they are to some extent unavoidable, if there are relevant studies. However, looking at the one you have added here, I note that the sources being cited concern German speakers and Germanic speakers, and therefore not "Germans". To be honest I am not sure anyone has done a good study of German genetic diversity, either internally or in contrast to neighbouring countries such as Denmark, France etc? That would be the kind of source we would need though? Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:PSTS, the article should be based on secondary sources, while studies are primary sources. AngelusVastator3456, you also confused "German" and "Germanic" in your addition to Anti-German sentiment. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Barrington2012-1] Lowell Barrington (6 January 2012). Comparative Politics: Structures and Choices. Cengage Learning. p. 112. ISBN 978-1-111-34193-0.

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