Talk:War

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2024

Undue weight is given to an outdated “endemic violence” in prehistory. The research is drawn from a non-consensus book from the 1990s. See the Wiki page on Pinker’s Better Angels (criticisms) for a plurality of perspectives. Ferguson would be a good counterbalancing source. “Violence: An Anthropology of War”. This article could be a good source to include along with the book.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/war-is-not-part-of-human-nature/ 2600:100C:B05F:B4B6:7501:61A2:25C5:BFDE (talk) 21:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

"War and Militarism" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect War and Militarism has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 22 § War and Militarism until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 22:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

"War and military science" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect War and military science has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 22 § War and military science until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 22:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Einstein quote

In 1947, in view of the rapidly increasingly destructive consequences of modern warfare, and with a particular concern for the consequences and costs of the newly developed atom bomb, Albert Einstein famously stated, "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Attribution of this quote to Einstein is somewhat dubious. See this Snopes article, for instance. But besides, I'm not sure whether this anecdote has enough relevance to be included in the History section; perhaps it would be better to remove it? 38.13.67.134 (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Opening sentence

-What is the purpose of the adjective "intense"?
-Is it possible for street gangs, drug cartels and human trafficking operations to engage in war? If yes, what group listed in the opening sentence would they be classified under? Chino-Catane (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Intense refers to the text linked in note [a], bur I noticed that the source uses that word about non-international conflict and says that any armed conflict between states is a war. Thus, I removed "intense". I think that there could be more about the differing definitions of war and some clarification that what polticians can call war (on terrorism, drugs or poverty] is figurative and not the way scholars use the term. I'll put some links here that seem relevant and reliable:

https://www.foi.se/rest-api/report/FOI%20MEMO%205075

https://researchcentre.army.gov.au/library/land-power-forum/what-war-defining-war-conflict-and-competition

https://www.britannica.com/topic/war

https://www.uu.se/en/department/peace-and-conflict-research/research/ucdp/ucdp-definitions (these are operational definitions for the purpose of maintaining a database so may not be as useful)

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-2/commentary/2016?activeTab=undefined

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gci-1949/article-3/commentary/2016?activeTab=undefined

And of course Clausewitz' calling war an extension of politics by other means.

Sjö (talk) 05:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The ICRC conclusion allows for non-international armed conflicts between non-governmental armed forces, e.g. drug cartels. Drug cartels cannot be classified as states, governments or societies. The armed element of some arbitrary but particular drug cartel may or may not be appropriately characterized as a "paramilitary" group. This implies the opening sentence of this article may be too restrictive. "According to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), roughly half of today’s wars involve between three and nine opposing groups ... today’s warriors are just as likely to be affiliated with drug cartels, mafia groups, criminal gangs, militias, and terrorist organizations as with armies or organized rebel factions." Chino-Catane (talk) 10:48, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Drug cartels engaged in armed conflict with that level of intensity can be only if they have paramilitary or militia element in their organization, sometimes totally independent in operations with some other proclaimed goals. The same is about other groups also. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 17:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Also this article is about warfare, and that is an important part of human history and present, other uses and stuff can go to some War (disambiguation) thing, as including similar or just by name similar could just "kill" this article and remove focus from the main topic. War and warfare is a clear and historical and presently important topic covering many thousand years of human existence. As I understood this is a general article covering all that, not just recent things or some eventual future things. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 17:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@178.221.64.186 Let's consider, for example, the Castellammarese War. Has any American Mafia family ever been characterized as a "paramilitary group"?

"Also this article is about warfare..."

The beginning of the article says, "This article is about war in general." Chino-Catane (talk) 20:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This page is about war as armed conflict, a pretty famous human activity since prehistoric times and this article cover that as general article. It is hard, almost impossible to any encyclopedia, dictionary or reference when someone searching for war and warfare in the first place won't recognize to that is an armed conflict similar or the same as it is stated here in the artcle. Anyone in the general public and readership also have a clear association of meaning. It is clear what war and warfare mean, aside from using that word as a rhetorical device (or crutch), leading it to mean nothing and everything. As a rhetorical device, word "war" can be used in many meanings but that is some other story and it can go in some War (disambiguation) thing. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 00:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@178.221.64.186 Is it your position that the Castellammarese War was not really a war? Chino-Catane (talk) 02:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a so-called term for in that case criminal group/s violence. But hardly to that example of violence/conflict between organized crime groups (they often do violent acts and have conflicts, part of their criminal activities) would be on the top of examples of any encyclopedia, dictionary or reference when someone searching for definition of war in the popular sense. It is like what is often found in newspapers, person X is Y are in war about something, or " the war against hip-hop music" etc, use of that word as a rhetorical device or word painting. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 06:34, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In other words, your answer to my question is, "Yes, the Castellammarese War was not really a war, applying the description of war provided by this particular article". Does that fairly summarize your position? Chino-Catane (talk) 20:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

You're all getting away from the point here -- it's not our place to make our own definitions of what constitutes "war" -- we can only state what reliable sources directly say about it, without inappropriately combining sources; and if those sources disagree we can point out the dispute and outline the prevailing positions. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 23:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. The problem is, there does not exist a generally accepted canonical definition of the string "war". International law defines "armed conflict", but Wikipedia redirects "armed conflict" to this article. Maybe "war" should redirect to "armed conflict" so that Wikipedia editors do not have the opportunity to generate creative definitions for a commonly used and misused term. Chino-Catane (talk) 02:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm maybe that first sentence in the article "This article is about war in general", could be changed to something as "This article is about war as an armed conflict" something like that. And after that, as it is now "For other uses, see War (disambiguation) and Warring (disambiguation)." As I already wrote, war in popular sense is pretty clear, and it existed long before international law norms an can be found in numerous encyclopedias, dictionaries or references. To make things more clear aside use of that word as a rhetorical device or word painting. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 02:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

comment: The cited ICRC source does not enumerate the types of groups engaged in armed conflict, as the opening sentence of this article does. This presents an instance of WP:OR. Chino-Catane (talk) 17:50, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. Groups such as listed there are common to be found in many articles about wars as belligerents or combatants. I don't think to anyone can deny that insurgents, mercs and militias are one of the most common armed groups engaged in wars today and in the history too. 178.221.64.186 (talk) 03:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

This is why I asked you to clarify your position on the Castellammarese War, an armed conflict between two groups that to my knowledge have not been characterized as "paramilitary". Is it your position that the Castellammarese War was not really a "War"? Chino-Catane (talk) 18:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

References