Talk:Rolls-Royce Holdings

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Scope

There are some engines listed in the products section that ceased production in the 1960s and 70s, they should be covered briefly in the Rolls-Royce Limited article. The hatnote in this article states the scope is 1987 on, the two engine navboxes split at 1971 (nationalisation of the company). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rank

The lead says:

"Rolls-Royce is the world's second-largest maker of aircraft engines^[1] (after General Electric)^[2]
...
The company is also the world's fourth largest commercial aircraft engine manufacturer, with a 12% market share as of 2020^[update].^[3]

Assuming the "commercial" isn't significant and maker=manufacturer, which is it, second or fourth? The Statista source is paywalled. :(

References

^ Wall, Robert (26 February 2014). "Rolls-Royce unveils new engine for future Boeing, Airbus planes". Bloomberg Business Week. Archived from the original on 7 March 2014. Retrieved 7 April 2014.
^ Aboulafia, Richard (7 January 2019). "GE's Jet Engine Business Could Lose Altitude From Sale of Its Giant Plane Leasing Operation". Forbes. Archived from the original on 15 June 2019. Retrieved 15 June 2019.
^ "Market share of the leading commercial aircraft engine manufacturers worldwide in 2020". Statista. May 2021. Retrieved 22 November 2023.

—[AlanM1 (talk)]— 05:29, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 August 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Rolls-Royce Holdings be renamed and moved to Rolls-Royce.

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Rolls-Royce Holdings → Rolls-Royce – Currently Rolls-Royce Holdings plc is the main Rolls-Royce company (it owns Rolls-Royce plc) while Rolls-Royce Motor Cars is a spin-off and the predecessor companies aren’t the main topic. For these reasons I think the current Rolls-Royce disambiguation page should be moved to Rolls-Royce (disambiguation) and this page should be moved to Rolls-Royce. Adriazeri (talk) 13:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree that Rolls Royce Holdings plc is by far the larger and more important business, but I suspect many readers will still be searching for Rolls Royce Motor Cars which historically came before the aero-engine business. Dormskirk (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Looking at pageviews, the car company gets more, though not by enough to not warrant the dab page. The dab also gets more clickthroughs to cars. YorkshireExpat (talk) 16:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Would cause redirects in many articles and navboxes unless the mover updates them all (never happens). The disambiguation page linked is actually a set index page, the usual practise for dealing with cases like this. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, clearly ambiguous. 162 etc. (talk) 20:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, clearly ambiguous. DAB should stay at "Rolls Royce". To casually claim that the car division is a "spin off" and not the main topic without some sort of reasoning or explanation is a bit weird and historically inaccurate as well - the cars came first and have much wider brand recognition with the general public than the aero engines (this from someone in the English midlands who has friends working at RR Holdings!). If anything is to be the PT, it would be the cars - but the status quo is more appropriate.Hemmers (talk) 11:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The car company (not division, it's a legally incorporated subsidiary of BMW Group^[1]) is technically not even related to Rolls-Royce Holdings. The original car company was a spin-off of the main Rolls-Royce plc (which Rolls-Royce Holdings operates through today^[2]). It was spun off in 1980 as Rolls-Royce Motors from Rolls-Royce Limited (now Rolls-Royce plc). It was first acquired by Vickers, then by VAG until VAG sold the brand rights (but not the company itself, Rolls-Royce Motors Limited has since been renamed to Bentley Motors Limited, still owned by VAG^[3]) to BMW Group, and BMW have since formed what is now today: Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited^[1]. Adriazeri (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b "ROLLS-ROYCE MOTOR CARS LIMITED persons with significant control - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.
^ "ROLLS-ROYCE PLC overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.
^ "BENTLEY MOTORS LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.

The car company (not division, it's a legally incorporated subsidiary of BMW Group) is technically not even related to Rolls-Royce Holdings

This is irrelevant to brand recognition and "What do people expect to find when they type the words 'Rolls Royce' into the search box?". (WP:LEAST).

The original car company was a spin-off of the main Rolls-Royce plc (which Rolls-Royce Holdings operates through today). It was spun off in 1980 as Rolls-Royce Motors from Rolls-Royce Limited (now Rolls-Royce plc)

This is grossly misrepresentative of the full history of the company. In terms of the business history, the company was founded as Rolls Royce Limited in 1904 making luxury cars. Cars came first. Yes, the ownership and where the trademarks landed have been horse-traded through the years, the car business was spun out into a separate entity and sold to Vickers, etc, etc, etc and the aero business remains the most directly-derived business from the original 1904 Ltd. But it's hardly fair to call the car business a "spin off". It was the founding and core business for 50 years! It retains top-10 global brand recognition alongside the likes of Coca Cola. And that's important in establishing things like Primary Topic.

All of which is academic in this case, because Wikinav and pageview data indicates there's a significant split in which articles people are actually looking for, and therefore it's appopriate for the DAB to be at the "root" Rolls Royce title. Hemmers (talk) 13:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Wall, Robert (26 February 2014). "Rolls-Royce unveils new engine for future Boeing, Airbus planes". Bloomberg Business Week. Archived from the original on 7 March 2014. Retrieved 7 April 2014.

[2] Aboulafia, Richard (7 January 2019). "GE's Jet Engine Business Could Lose Altitude From Sale of Its Giant Plane Leasing Operation". Forbes. Archived from the original on 15 June 2019. Retrieved 15 June 2019.

[3] "Market share of the leading commercial aircraft engine manufacturers worldwide in 2020". Statista. May 2021. Retrieved 22 November 2023.

[rrmc-4] "ROLLS-ROYCE MOTOR CARS LIMITED persons with significant control - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.

[5] "ROLLS-ROYCE PLC overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.

[6] "BENTLEY MOTORS LIMITED overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK". find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk. Retrieved 2024-08-05.

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