Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film
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Alternate words for "film"
[edit]Hey all. When working on film pages I often need another word for "film" so I don't use the same word twice in quick succession. Sometimes I substitute "production" or "project" if appropriate. Is it acceptable to use the word "picture" as well, or is it too archaic? Wafflewombat (talk) 03:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seems likely to be okay, but the most common synonym is probably "movie". TompaDompa (talk) 01:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is "movie" okay to use? I don't see it used in more well-developed film articles. Wafflewombat (talk) 01:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, it's too informal. Just use "film". Don't ostentatiously use synonyms for common words. See Wikipedia:The problem with elegant variation. It generally makes your prose look like a 5th grade wrote it, which is worse than using the same word twice in two sentences. Or rewrite your sentences.
- Bad: "The film was released in 2002 by Paramount. The film received negative reviews, and the film's box office gross was equally poor."
- Even worse: "The picture was released in 2002 by Paramount. The production received negative reviews, and the film's box office gross was equally poor."
- Better: "Paramount released Wikipedia: The Film in 2002. It received negative reviews, and its box office gross was equally poor."
- With practice, it becomes easy. I'm sure you're thinking of even better ways to write that sentence right now. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Too informal? Nonsense, I say—"movie" is used in plenty of formal contexts. It is something of an WP:ENGVAR issue, on the other hand. But yes, avoiding elegant variation is usually preferable. TompaDompa (talk) 02:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Movie" is informal and should be avoided. "Picture" is archaic and ambiguous. Use the correct word and use it every time.
- If you find you're using the same word too many times and it's noticeable, it means there's a bigger problem with your syntax, not that you should start using alternative words. See WP:ELEVAR, as NinjaRobotPirate already mentioned. Popcornfud (talk) 02:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I mean, it depends. What effect are you going for? Here is an example. Sometimes, you want short sentences. Other times, longer ones. They give different rhythms. It may or may not be desirable to produce the effect one gets from stacking several shorter sentences one after the other just as it may or may not be desirable to produce the effect one gets from writing a single but rather lengthy sentence. It depends on the context. This also applies to other writing choices. There isn't a "one size fits all" approach to writing. "Never switch between synonyms" isn't better advice than "always switch between synonyms". TompaDompa (talk) 02:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Movie" isn't used on WP for the reason stated. If it's present in an article, any film editor will change it to "film". Most reputable film news, review, and industry sources use "film", even if they may also use "movie" in articles. I have never encountered an instance where I think I cannot use "film" more than once or alternate it with "it". Changing up the syntax helps with sentence flow. Sometimes that takes more than one copyedit, especially when you're still adding and arranging content. Lapadite (talk) 04:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Another alternative is to use the actual name of the film in place of "it" or "film". Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes of course. I limit repeated uses of the title within one paragraph as I think more than a couple repetitions can sound more clunky than "film" or "it". Wafflewombat, as for "production", it's not synonymous with "film" as the film is the finished product, though the term can be used for any stage of development; "production" should only be used when you're referring to the production itself, i.e the making of the film (the filming period and anything that occurs during or to the production). "Project" can be interchanged with "film" if it suits the context. For ex, when talking about awards won, it's not fitting to say "The project won three Academy Awards"; but it can be used when writing about, say, a producer, film crew, or cast decision, like: "x joined/financed/worked on the project". Lapadite (talk) 07:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not using "movie" is one of those quirks of Wikipedia that is really at odds with how the English language is used outside it. Avoiding contractions is another. TompaDompa (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to reflect how the English language is commonly used, WP:SLANG and MOS:CONTRACTIONS. Indagate (talk) 11:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I know, but it's not like all serious outlets avoid "movie" and contractions either. The top story on Time magazine's website at the moment uses a contraction in
Biden appears to have pulled his family closer while attempting to prove that he's still the Democrats' best option.
, for instance. TompaDompa (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)- Wikipedia aims to be a serious encyclopedia not a newspaper or magazine, which are written differently. Wikipedia has a huge English-as-a-second-langauge audience, you would not believe how helpful it can be to keep it simple and how much difference it can makes to readers who have little choice but to read English language Wikipedia. Clarity must be prioritized even if it might make your prose seem a little stilted and repetitive. -- 109.77.200.184 (talk) 14:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Certainly we should want the text to be clear to readers and editors who have English as a second language (which is one reason I think MOS:COMMONALITY is usually good to follow while MOS:TIES is sometimes counterproductive), not least because that's the majority of English-speakers. I don't think writing "cannot" instead of "can't" helps with that, though. TompaDompa (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- For what its worth, we have Category:Monster movies rather than "film" as maybe alliteration took over, the generally used term for the genre was "Monster movies" over "monster films". I generally agree to use the term film and I've yet to come across any decently written articles where it feels like I could make a drinking game out of how many times we see the word "film". Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Certainly we should want the text to be clear to readers and editors who have English as a second language (which is one reason I think MOS:COMMONALITY is usually good to follow while MOS:TIES is sometimes counterproductive), not least because that's the majority of English-speakers. I don't think writing "cannot" instead of "can't" helps with that, though. TompaDompa (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia aims to be a serious encyclopedia not a newspaper or magazine, which are written differently. Wikipedia has a huge English-as-a-second-langauge audience, you would not believe how helpful it can be to keep it simple and how much difference it can makes to readers who have little choice but to read English language Wikipedia. Clarity must be prioritized even if it might make your prose seem a little stilted and repetitive. -- 109.77.200.184 (talk) 14:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- I know, but it's not like all serious outlets avoid "movie" and contractions either. The top story on Time magazine's website at the moment uses a contraction in
- Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to reflect how the English language is commonly used, WP:SLANG and MOS:CONTRACTIONS. Indagate (talk) 11:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Another alternative is to use the actual name of the film in place of "it" or "film". Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Too informal? Nonsense, I say—"movie" is used in plenty of formal contexts. It is something of an WP:ENGVAR issue, on the other hand. But yes, avoiding elegant variation is usually preferable. TompaDompa (talk) 02:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, it's too informal. Just use "film". Don't ostentatiously use synonyms for common words. See Wikipedia:The problem with elegant variation. It generally makes your prose look like a 5th grade wrote it, which is worse than using the same word twice in two sentences. Or rewrite your sentences.
- Is "movie" okay to use? I don't see it used in more well-developed film articles. Wafflewombat (talk) 01:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Production Country of Mad Max: Fury Road
[edit]There is discussion on how Mad Max: Fury Road should be described per its country in the lead of the article. Everyone is welcome to join in to give input. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Starship Troopers is up for a Featured Article nomination
[edit]Neutral notice Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is going to be archived soon due to a lack of comments if anyone has any interest. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 09:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Sad Story of Self Supporting Child#Requested move 22 July 2024
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sad Story of Self Supporting Child#Requested move 22 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Wuju Daisuki (talk) 19:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Infobox currency for foreign film budgets
[edit]Can someone advise about the use of foreign currency denominations in the Infobox for the budget or other costs of a foreign film? It maybe makes sense to quote Euros for, let's say, European films back to a certain point (less so for French francs or German marks—who has any idea what they were worth anymore?). In the article body I think it's fine, as they seem to be converted to USD for the few cases I've noticed, but the older the date of a film gets, the less a currency value seems comprehensible, even for well-known countries.
Who has any idea now, what "3.6 million Reichsmarks" means? That figure is in the Infobox of The Dismissal (1942), and also in the § Production section, where it is accompanied by a conversion value, but the Infobox lacks a conversion. I seem to remember from history there was a point during the interwar period when Germans were carrying around wheelbarrows of cash to go buy groceries, and some of the bills were overstamped with 100-billion Reichmarks, so maybe the production cost was 4 US cents? (Obviously, it wasn't; but the point is, I have no freakin' idea how much it is.)
I can see an argument for not including a conversion in the Infobox, because it would increase clutter, but then that reduces the utility of having it at all; maybe just drop it altogether? Or, maybe just quote in modern USD? Or have the foreign currency and then an explanatory note attached with the conversion? Is there any kind of guideline about this, or even just general practice on how to deal with production costs, especially when they are long ago or in unfamiliar currencies like German Reichsmarks? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- For budgets, it is probably best to use the currency the budget was financed in. That seems to be the most consistent with MOS:CURRENCY. In the case of a worldwide box-office figure that you can source from Box Office Mojo a dollar amount makes sense, but when the bulk of the revenue comes from just one country it is probably better to use the currency of that country. In this case I would stick with Reichsmarks: it can be sourced and is factual. I don't see how converting the figures to dollars benefits the article in this case. I also don't understand how the inflation metric is used here, either: surely inflating using the German CPI will inflate the figure to euros, not dollars? I generally find that some comparative analysis often helps. For example, The Singing Fool uses dollars, but the figures are still meaningless. Even if you inflate them the figures are still meaningless because the landscape of film finance has changed beyond basic inflation. It's only when you read that it was the biggest sound feature until Snow White a decade later that you get a sense of its financial success. Likewise with budgets: something like Ben Hur cost $4 million to make back in 1925 and that inflates to $75 million today. That wouldn't even cover Tom Cruise's salary these days, but Ben Hur held the record as the most expensive film for 25 years. The numbers don't tell the whole story. Betty Logan (talk) 04:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Geena Davis Institute article improvements
[edit]Hello! I'm Robin, posting here as part of my work for Beutler Ink on behalf of the Geena Davis Institute. I've disclosed my conflict of interest on the article Talk page and on my User page.
I've proposed changes to the article and am looking for editors to review. Specifically, I think the article has grown to be a bit overly detailed and relies on the organization itself somewhat. The version I've proposed brings it back to focus on secondary sourcing. I thought editors here might be interested in taking a look. All discussion is welcome. Cheers! BINK Robin (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion notices: Nationality in the lead section
[edit]For anyone in the mood for a spirited discussion, feel free to weigh in at Talk:Mad Max: Fury Road#Australian in lead.
This has also led to a possible revisit of the MOS:FILMCOUNTRY guideline. For that discussion, please see WT:MOSFILM#Nationality of film.
I am bowing out of both, but I think some good points were brought up worth further consideration by WP:FILM. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:18, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Sourcing lists of works
[edit] There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lists of works regarding sourcing lists of works. The thread is Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Are_references_required_for_lists_of_works?. Thank you. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Bold text in plot
[edit]Priyangen1345 relishes in adding bold text in the plot to "Past" and "present", like this. Their rationale on my talk page is "The past and present separates the flashbacks from the current story". I find this logic dumb since Leo is a single film, not an anthology film where the segments/chapters have names and thus need bold text/division. I feel regular text like "In the past" should suffice since it is prose, not bullet points, but Priyangen1345 accused me of "vandalism". Kailash29792 (talk) 11:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- They should not be using it per MOS:NOTBOLD since it is being used for emphasis. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Categorizing Amazon MGM Studios releases
[edit]Recently, Amazon MGM Studios has been pivoting towards producing and releasing their movies under the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, Orion Pictures and American International Pictures labels (similar to how Sony Pictures and Amblin Partners operate), yet we are categorizing movies released with these labels as Amazon MGM Studios films, while the article also holds a subcategory of that category (for example, an MGM release having both the Amazon category and its MGM subcategory for its article). I came here to request we stop doing this and just stick to using subcategories as it means most movies from the studio will have two categories (three if its a theatrical release, because Warner currently theatrically distributes AMGMS titles overseas). It also seems like Amazon is going to be reviving the United Artists brand. It's not particularly clear how Amazon will handle it, but if the credits of a movie with the involvement of this new iteration doesn't explicitly credit AMGMS it shouldn't be categorized as one of their films Inpops (talk) 20:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Cryptozoo#Requested move 23 July 2024
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Cryptozoo#Requested move 23 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 08:25, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Twisters (film) has an RfC
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Ambox_warning_orange.svg/48px-Ambox_warning_orange.svg.png)
Twisters (film) has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Douglas Fairbanks in Robin Hood#Requested move 23 July 2024
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Douglas Fairbanks in Robin Hood#Requested move 23 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 17:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
IMDb credits
[edit]General question: to what extent are producing/writing/directing credits on a person's IMDb reliable or accurate? Anyone here have any insight as to whether such credits on IMDb profiles are provided by professionals in the industry or random people, and whether they're verified by IMDb employees? Lapadite (talk) 23:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe WP:IMDB might help? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- My observation is that when an persons name is listed in the credits for a film or TV show, that project automatically gets added to the persons page as a credit for the show. I've done this to fix things when credits were wrong or fakes as sometimes happens. All the credits added to a project are added by unknown people who might be professionals with certain knowledge or random people reading the credits. This all has some unknown amount of checking by IMDB thus the guidance at WP:IMDB. Credits are generally accurate as there are plenty of people watching or correcting, but then again, that is the experience for most user generated content including Wikipedia. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- So it's essentially the same as for other credits, awards, trivia, then. WP:IMDB is vague on this question, and I wondered what "certain content" specifically is verified by staff. I know we can submit corrections to IMDb, but I'm not sure whether anyone can link a person and a project's filmmaking credits or if that was solely done by IMDb staff or industry professionals (such as an actor or filmmaker's team). Geraldo Perez, if you encountered incorrect credits you had to fix, then I guess that answers the question of whether staff or industry professionals add and verify those specific credits. Even if the filmmaking credits can be accurate, they're not inherently reliable. Lapadite (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I found a couple of people who created a fake notable presence on IMDb (they tried this on Wiki too but our checking is better). Created an actor page, then added themselves to a bunch of projects. IMDb allows people to edit credits and it isn't immediately reflected so they do do some checking, but the fake credits and personas got added anyway. I found this when they tried to add themselves to Wiki articles and used IMDb as a source. Wikipedia:Citing IMDb has some examples of stuff that is accurate and obviously IMDb gets fed from the production teams for in progress and newly release films and TV shows. It is just that after that initial population of data they allow random users to edit it and add to it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:13, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yikes. Well that fully answers this. Thank you, I appreciate it. Lapadite (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I seem to recall IMDb Pro has a slightly better shot of being reliable, but in the end, it's likely still just a starting point to see if someone is credited for something and to find a reliable source for them elsewhere. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yikes. Well that fully answers this. Thank you, I appreciate it. Lapadite (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I found a couple of people who created a fake notable presence on IMDb (they tried this on Wiki too but our checking is better). Created an actor page, then added themselves to a bunch of projects. IMDb allows people to edit credits and it isn't immediately reflected so they do do some checking, but the fake credits and personas got added anyway. I found this when they tried to add themselves to Wiki articles and used IMDb as a source. Wikipedia:Citing IMDb has some examples of stuff that is accurate and obviously IMDb gets fed from the production teams for in progress and newly release films and TV shows. It is just that after that initial population of data they allow random users to edit it and add to it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:13, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- So it's essentially the same as for other credits, awards, trivia, then. WP:IMDB is vague on this question, and I wondered what "certain content" specifically is verified by staff. I know we can submit corrections to IMDb, but I'm not sure whether anyone can link a person and a project's filmmaking credits or if that was solely done by IMDb staff or industry professionals (such as an actor or filmmaker's team). Geraldo Perez, if you encountered incorrect credits you had to fix, then I guess that answers the question of whether staff or industry professionals add and verify those specific credits. Even if the filmmaking credits can be accurate, they're not inherently reliable. Lapadite (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah. I would try to use better sources. If you absolutely get stuck with using a database, the WP:FILM community at large seems more comfortable with AFI Film Database and the BFI one, for more Anglo-based films. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you have access to the film itself, the credits are listed there and the film is the primary reliable source for what is in it including the credits. Generally if a film has been released to the public it can be used as a source and if the film is mentioned it is the cite. IMDb is usually correct at least to the point of if a person isn't in IMDb the person likely isn't in the film. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Notable career progression content in the lead
[edit]Posted this discussion at WP:ACTOR, but posting it here as well as this project talk tends to be more active.
Input is appreciated at Talk:Aubrey Plaza#Lead. There's a dispute pertaining to someone removing notable career content from the lead. Please provide input on whether such content that reliable sources consider significant in the actor/producer's career should be present in the lead. Please refer to the content-related comments in that discussion for further context, including the bullet point specification of the issues. Thanks. Lapadite (talk) 01:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
The draft I submitted for this early American film studio was rejected if anyone can help. Thanks. FloridaArmy (talk) 13:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- [1][2] might have something useful, and there could be more at [3]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
American Pie
[edit]I'm doing a little work on American Pie (film) and was wondering if anyone else wanted to participate. I don't have the free time to go nuts on it but I'm trying to just bring it up to a solid GA at least and if you're a millennial then this was probably one of the defining comedies of your youth. Even if you jjust have useful sources as the production section is fairly anemic. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Enquête sur un scandale d'État (2021 film)
[edit]Would anyone be so kind as to take a look at my draft and say what should be added before submission. Draft is here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Enqu%C3%AAte_sur_un_scandale_d%27%C3%89tat_(2021_film) Red Fiona (talk) 23:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Pardon my bluntness...I think I was hoping other editors might comment sooner...but my first thought when I look at this is that whoever wrote it hasn't looked at existing film articles (even non-GA or FAs) and tried to emulate their style, and possibly also hasn't looked at MOS:FILM. Right off the bat, the article doesn't say when the film was released, nor is the title of the article consistent with our naming conventions. DonIago (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- No need to ask for pardon when I asked for a look over :). I promise I did look at MOS Film but will make the suggested change. Red Fiona (talk) 16:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
The Frighteners
[edit]There's a discussion regarding the plot section of The Frighteners, which can be found at Talk:The Frighteners#Plot section is wonkily written, hard to follow in places, and is both excessively detailed while also missing important plot-beats.. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 08:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Category:Film and television backlog
[edit]If anyone is looking for something to do, their are many pages listed in the various categories over at Category:Film and television backlog. Gonnym (talk) 13:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)