Talk:Báb
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Execution
[edit]Here is the source used in the lead, Hartz p. 35:
Eyewitness accounts record the remarkable events surrounding the execution of the Bab. The army jailers suspended the Bab and one of his young followers by ropes from the top of a wall. A firing squad of 750 Armenian Christian soldiers lined up facing them. The order to fire was given. The rifles made a deafening roar and black smoke filled the entire area. When the smoke cleared the Bab's companion stood by the wall, unhurt. The Bab had disappeared.
Searchers found him in his room calmly dictating to his secretary. The original firing squad was so shaken by what had happened that they refused to continue. Many believed that they had attempted to kill a holy man and now feared the wrath of God. Officials quickly brought together a squad of Muslim marksmen to carry out the execution. This time the soldiers did not miss and the Bab was killed.
The story of the Bab's death spread throughout Persia like the wind. It had a profound impact not only on the Persian people but also on the many Europeans who lived in Persia at the time. It aroused new interest in his message...
This is a bit dramatic but pretty typical of how it is described. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Image of the Bab
[edit]Hello @AimanAbir18plus, thank you for contributing to the article. It is my understanding that the image you added is generally agreed not to be an image of the Bab. It is most likely Kazim Rashti, although I've seen arguments that it could be Quddús as well. If you believe it is an image of the Bab, you'd need to provide a reliable source that affirms that, and there'd need to be discussion here about whether that is a reliable source and weighty enough to outweigh contrary sources. —penultimate_supper 🚀talk 21:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
Religious vs historical view
[edit]I noticed that some parts of this article place too much emphasis on the religious perspective rather than a scholarly and historical standpoint. In particular, it fails to mention how the Báb gradually distanced himself from Islam to ultimately proclaim it abrogated. The Báb's entry in Encyclopædia Iranica (used as a source for this article) explicitly states:
- In 1844, he first claimed in his Qayyūm al-asmā to be bāb al-emām (a gate to the [Hidden] Imam) and servant of the baqīyat Allāh, asserting his belief in the validity of Islamic Sharia "until the day of resurrection."
- Between 1845-1847, he practiced Taqiyya and renounced his claim.
- In 1848, he proclaimed himself the Hidden Imam and annulled Islamic Sharia in favor of his own. This was well-known among his followers as of Conference of Badasht.
- Sometime between 1848 and 1950 in Chehriq, he further proclaimed himself maẓhar-e elāhī (a Manifestation of God). Quote from the source "It is unlikely that these claims of the Bāb were widely known to his followers in the period before his death"
However, these details are not only absent in the article but are contradicted by religious references. For instance:
The Báb was the "gateway" to this messianic figure [referring to He whom God shall make manifest, not the Hidden Imam], whose message would be carried throughout the world
The Qayyūm al-asmā, the first major work of the Báb, identifies its author as a Messenger of God, in the line of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and those who had preceded them.
In many places in this commentary, Sayyid Ali Muhammad referred to himself by the traditional Muslim title "Báb" (Gate) although it was apparent from the context that he intended by this term a spiritual claim very different from any which had previously been associated with
Upon reviewing the sources for these statements, they are solely supported by Bahá’í references:
- Hatcher & Martin 1998 (published by the Baha'i Publishing Trust); the authors are Bahá’í officials without scholarly authority in religious or historical studies.
- Manuchehri 2000 (published by the Bahá’í community in Australia); the author's background is in translation
- Lawson & Ghaemmaghami 2012 (published by George Ronald, a Bahá’í company)
Utilizing these sources raises concerns, as they may not provide a balanced view. Khánum Gül (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I recently got ahold of a source that has some good information on the gradualism of the Báb's claims. Amanat also covers this extensively, and has a very different view from scholars more closely connected to the Bahá'í Faith, so we can probably integrate some of his work. Different interpretations of that gradualism should certainly be present, since the literature on it is diverse, but I'd agree that the article could be improved on this aspect. I'll see what I can add from Amanat and a few other sources I have access to.
- There are only a few universities offering courses in Bábí and Bahá’í studies though, so most work is going to be done by people with different backgrounds, that's unavoidable, and a degree in a specific field isn't a requirement to be considered reliable. I think we can approach this additively—unless there are specific sources that really don't meet standards—and construct a pretty rich depiction of the Báb's claims over time; it's one of the most commented upon aspects of his ministry in both religious and scholarly sources.
- I've been spending some time reading articles on Mormonism/LDS, and some of the good articles on LDS topics provide some examples of how to deal with potentially biased but still informative sources in ways that enrich the article but don't give undue weight to religious perspective to the exclusion of external scholarship. Similarly to Bábism and the Bahá'í Faith, LDS topics often have limited truly external coverage, so informative articles have to be carefully constructed to ensure neutrality. — penultimate_supper 🚀 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
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